Tuesday, December 06, 2005

Bad News

Very shitty stuff here:
'
A couple of western women tourists have turned up missing in Kathmandu in recent months.

One, a german woman named Sabine Grunekee has prompted the arrival of ten german police officials in Kathmandu yesterday.

The other, a French woman named Celine henry is also missing.

Both women took the hiking trail just to the north of Kathmandu in the Rani forest reserve.

Trouble is, this reserve is also an army encampment and really, no one but tourists and army personnel are there.

Well, here's the shitty stuff: apparently one of these womens' bra and blood-stained underwear turned up in this reserve. The Germans are pissed and looking for answers and suspects, as well they should. Apparently, this evidence was turned up only after the Germans sent 10 policemen and two search dogs to Nepal to investigate.

Word on the street is that it is very very unlikely that there is a rogue Nepali committing these crimes. Most importantly, it is very difficult for the average nepali to outright kill a western person anywhere in the kathmandu valley without at least some attention or scrutiny.

Blame has been insinuated in both the military and the royal direction with regard to this crime.

blogdai asks the Nepali community at large to offer any information that may help in resolving this issue.

-=blogdai

52 Comments:

At 3:55 PM, December 06, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pretty sane comment this time around. You already know the answer Blogdai. History consistently points out to those factors - millitary or/and the palace. If you insist otherwise, it will be your own fault and of course your "love" for your great palace and the millitary. It's up to you whether to accept or deny it!! Jay Nepal

 
At 7:01 PM, December 06, 2005, Blogger blogdai said...

History or heresay, blogdai will not form any opinions or lynch mob here. It involves a military complex and that is all it involves at this point.

It is pathetic for you to suggest that my opinions and perspectives imply guilt or complicity in this matter. Perhaps your own rabid bias informs both your statements and your rush to blame.

For now, we can only wait for the facts to emerge and grieve with the family of this young woman.

-=blogdai

 
At 8:15 PM, December 06, 2005, Anonymous Alison said...

blogdai, i am curious - why are you saying that you are not able to name the French woman?

There has been no attempt to keep her identity anonymous in other (travel-related) online fora, or indeed on the many fliers seeking information posted in businesses in Kathmandu...(well when I was there a month ago anyway)

 
At 11:12 PM, December 06, 2005, Blogger blogdai said...

Not so curious, Alison, I just did not have the name at my disposal when I wrote the initial blog. Will look for it today and revise the original post. Plus, there were 10 german policement who brought 2 dogs with them and they believe the remains to be those of the german girl.

-=blogdai

 
At 11:32 PM, December 06, 2005, Anonymous Alison said...

Ah, now I understand...

The name of the French woman is Celine Henry. And the full name of the German woman is Sabine Gruneklee.

There is a link on the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree regarding the disappearance of both women, from which some useful information can be extracted (including links etc):

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/messagepost.cfm?postaction=reply&catid=16&threadid=937824&messid=7998567&STARTPAGE=1&parentid=0&from=1

(Sorry blogdai, I don't know how to make the link active, or how to add accents!)

 
At 12:31 AM, December 07, 2005, Blogger blogdai said...

Thank you Alison, I will revise the original article with your information.

-=blogdai

 
At 8:32 PM, December 07, 2005, Anonymous John said...

Blogdai, please also note that the Maoists are extorting money from trekkers and visitors. So the choice is: either visitors or "tourists" should be ready to pay for the Maoist terrorists or they should be ready to be disappeared in a sanctuary protected by the millitary. Tough choice.

 
At 4:01 PM, December 08, 2005, Anonymous m.r. said...

"Very shitty stuff here" you said, Blogdai.
And I couldn't agree more. I've just finished reading the part (# 6) about Nagarjuna Hill in below "Buddhist Guide to the Power Places of the Kathmandu Valley"

http://www.keithdowman.net/essays/guide.htm

Such a sacred place, and then to be aware that in six weeks time two women, foreign tourists, were attacked there in broad daylight, and robbed, and probably even a lot worse.
If any of the ancient, powerful spirits that used to live in the Nagarjun forest in the past, according to the Buddhist tales, would still wander around there I hope that they will HAUNT the criminals responsible for both disappearances, until they can't stand it no longer and give up and turn themselves in. Although it feels rather embarrassing to come with such an opinion in a country where thousands of people have disappeared in the past decade or so...

But btw, the items found were discovered there mid October already, long before the German policemen arrived. KOL published about it on October 16.
http://www.kantipuronline.com/kolnews.php?&nid=54745

mr

 
At 6:59 PM, December 08, 2005, Blogger blogdai said...

Aha, blogdai stands corrected, thank you.

One wonders, then, what all the german cops and dogs were doing here last week.

Perhaps there were new findings as well.

-=blogdai

 
At 7:34 PM, December 08, 2005, Anonymous Muller said...

I don't know what German cops do, but I know for sure that German dogs won't help much or are they trained for smelling royal Ghurkha army smells?

 
At 7:58 PM, December 08, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, they typically acquire a scent by being given an article or something belonging to the victim ahead of the search.

They are trained to trace any scent they are given in this manner.

 
At 6:24 AM, December 09, 2005, Anonymous m.r. said...

Frankly I think there's a lot to learn still for some of you about dogs and what some dogs can. I understand the large German & the French presence quite well. For even without their dogs it's astonishing that afaik so far only foreigners managed to find back belongings of both tourists, and they did so rapidly. Odd, to say the least.
It seems that there is a reward offered for any kind of information that leads to finding one or both women, but I don't have the details. I would hope though that a reward might help convince whoever it was mid-October who gave that tip about Nagarjun Forest, to come forward, contact a relative or any of the foreigners, and tell more. I hope it's someone who had started to feel guilty for keeping silent, and who feels even a lot more guilty now that his (or her) call came only júst too late for the second victim...

But on a related note: did anybody lately still hear our highly esteemed ambassadors such as Bloomfield, Jolivet and that guy Ring márvel about how Nepal is a perfectly safe destination for tourists and how no tourist was ever harmed there? Like they "unequivocally reiterated" on a festival in Pokhara on October 14, according to a Kantipur Online newsarticle of that date. Or did they finally learn a lesson meanwhile? Now that would be néws if it were true...

 
At 4:16 PM, December 09, 2005, Anonymous mr said...

.
http://www.nepalitimes.com/issue276/nation.htm

No comments, other than that I can't agree at present with everything that's in there. But that's absolutely not the reporters's fault.

 
At 12:44 AM, December 10, 2005, Blogger blogdai said...

It is unusual that evidence emerged so quickly. Sounds like there's someone out there with a big secret they're dying to tell.

This is a crime against individuals. It is not pandemic throughout nepal, and as such, it is ludicrous to suggest the entire country is now unsafe because a murder has occurred.

-=blogdai

 
At 1:54 AM, December 10, 2005, Anonymous Brit said...

Today's Telegraph (UK) gives an account of how the discovery came about: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/10/wsobhraj10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/12/10/ixportal.html
The British Embassy website also gives the matter a mention :
"Crime

There have been two serious attacks on foreigners recently in the Nagarjun Forest Reserve just outside Kathmandu. You are advised to use the utmost caution whilst in this area and not to travel there alone. It is not yet clear who carried out these attacks."

- not sure when this was posted but the site was last updated on 25th November

 
At 3:26 PM, December 10, 2005, Anonymous m.r. said...

My comment re. foreign ambassadors wasn't intended to suggest "the entire country is now unsafe", as you put it Blogdai. Crimes happen everywhere, unfortunately.
But I'm just "generally pissed" that most diplomats only emphasise the good parts and strongly invite people to come, whereas soon as serious shit happens when one of their nationals disappears they have virtually nothing ready to deal with a missing traveller case. Not so much as a sound "protocol" that takes care of every required action and recommendations. I tell you that not all relatives and close friends of someone who goes on a (trekking-)holiday and then disappears, are skilled and able to come and play detective. Let alone that they would know everything in advance about Nepal that they need to know to be able to organise an effective search. That's my main objection against ambassadors and consuls in Nepal, though not all of them. But some really know how to make a mess of things, and "arrogance" is most probably invented by western diplomats.

But to get back on topic, below are the URLs of an info-blog kept for Céline Henry, and a webpage with information about Sabine Grueneklee. Several photos there too.
Every now and then stories pop up that say one of the bodies has been found, but to the best of my knowledge that is simply not true yet.

http://spaces.msn.com/members/yannosman/

http://www.hasenfus.com/sabine/

bye.

 
At 3:40 PM, December 10, 2005, Anonymous m.r. said...

@ brit
The special warning re. Nagarjun Forest Reserve on the FCO-website was added sometime between October 31st and November 8th. I believe the site of the Ktm Embassy links to the FCO Travel Advice.

(Problem remains of course that as long as they don't catch him/them, there's lots more parks and forests in the neighbourhood I believe...)

 
At 3:06 AM, December 15, 2005, Anonymous Alison said...

"did anybody lately still hear our highly esteemed ambassadors such as Bloomfield, Jolivet and that guy Ring márvel about how Nepal is a perfectly safe destination for tourists and how no tourist was ever harmed there? Like they "unequivocally reiterated" on a festival in Pokhara on October 14, according to a Kantipur Online newsarticle of that date."

'm.r' - I could be getting this confused with something else, but weren't they speaking in relation to the Maoist conflict? In which case what they said was accurate...unless you are trying to suggest that the maoists had something to do with the disappearance of Celine and Sabine???

 
At 8:15 AM, December 15, 2005, Anonymous m.r. said...

How would you prove that Maoists never harmed tourists, Alison? There are enough trekkers and other tourists as well to state differently (although some of them owed it to their own conduct and refusal to pay). It's also on governments websites (travel advisories), and no I don't think the ambassadors were accurate at all.
Regarding both missing women and your last remark, I didn't intend to suggest they fell victim to "real" Maoists. Would be kind of suicide in that place, wouldn't it?

 
At 8:06 AM, December 25, 2005, Anonymous Angelica said...

This was the act of criminals, plain and simple. Some of you are trying to turn this into a political issue but you obviously don't understand the role of ambassadors in foreign countries and it seems pointless trying to explain

 
At 4:58 AM, December 26, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

blogdai and others.
lets say if i had some sensetive information, say about this case,say about the army or the palace, would it be potentialy dangerous for me to post that info on web, ex here? is it possible at all to trace users?
is it possible that i would face reprimates if doing so?

 
At 9:36 AM, December 26, 2005, Anonymous angelica said...

Anon,
You could be traced if Google (owners of Blogger) wanted to give you up. I don't think blogdai would be able to figure out who you are though as the Blogger software specifically doesn't allow the blog author to trace IP addreses. If you use a proxy server to access this blog and post it will increase you privacy.

If you have information, you should post it.

 
At 3:21 AM, December 27, 2005, Anonymous m.r. said...

Namaste Anonymous,

Maybe you care in the first place about justice in Nepal, maybe you care mostly about the missing women and their relatives, maybe you have other reasons. In any case, let me tell you that the two families in Europe are “dying” to hear relevant information, and important new leads and details. Because even though it’s the end of December now, they still know nóthing for sure and that is extremely hard to bear.

Using a proxy server to post here will be difficult, because many of them were blocked in Nepal earlier this year. But I agree with Angelica that you don’t need to be afraid, for technical reasons, if you would post your info on this blog. Not only is it owned by a non-Nepali company, but didn’t Blogdai himself make very clear how he feels about these two disappearances, and the location where they took place?

Everyone involved is well aware of the difficult situation in Nepal and that sensitive information can put individuals in danger. But you know what a tragedy this is, and therefore pléase but carefully tell what you know. However, it might be recommendable to do so in an e-mail, and not – at this stage – on a public board. Not because of this blog, but because your details cóuld do harm to the search that is continuing.

If you can give accurate information or important tips, you can also mail the relatives directly:

Daniël Henry, brother of Céline Henry:
daniel.henry13@wanadoo.fr

Susanne Grueneklee, sister of Sabine Grueneklee:
Sanni-Grueneklee@gmx.de

They are both back in Europe again, but the search in Nepal didn't stop. The families have professional and reliable foreigner assistance in the capital meanwhile. But all additional help is very much appreciated. (And it was mentioned already that there is a financial reward for important information).

If you have any more questions, please post them.


Best wishes,

m.r.

 
At 11:21 PM, December 28, 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said...

any crimes to human rights need to be reported maybe to Amnesty International. In Peru during the rise of so called lightening path=maoists, 1981\2 tourists were also at danger and amnisty as well as the association of tourists were blamed by the military government of Belaunde to be ' terrorist'
Human rights issues

 
At 5:06 PM, January 20, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

I wonder if the anonymous poster who seemed to suggest here that s/he might have sensitive information, managed to get in touch indeed with one or two people close to the investigations. And if s/he did so, if s/he was satisfied about that communication.
But considering that it’s 3½ weeks meanwhile since the last reply was added to this thread, I’m not so sure if anyone still pays attention to this discussion.

And to Angelica, should you still read this one day: you complained about criticism that I posted here regarding some foreign diplomats (you said ‘ambassadors’; I spoke of consuls as well). You should however be aware that in respect of the two Nagarjun Forest disappearances, in time a truth will hopefully be publicised that will make you take back your criticism.
I’m nót saying this because anyone would feel any better to watch you admit that never in your life you would have expected that something that happened – involving an embassy, and neglect - cóuld ever have happened at all. But it did. And I’m sincerely hoping that it will not take ages anymore before the concerned relatives can ‘safely’ make this public. Because not only is it their right, in my opinion, to make that experience public: it can also be seen as a kind of moral duty towards any future tourist to Nepal, and his or her relatives, should something go seriously wrong during a foreigner’s stay in Nepal and the assistance of an embassy be called in.

 
At 1:11 PM, January 21, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Quote from the thread about Ian Martin:

At 11:00 AM, January 21, 2006, m.r. said...
How to deal with a genuine threat to public safety: Fear of terror attack on R-Day

= = =

Blogdai, I did nót make that post here.


Goodbye.

m.r.

 
At 2:07 PM, January 21, 2006, Blogger blogdai said...

Oh dear God, if anonymous can't realize that I meant the ban on assembly issued january 16, then there is no hope for sane discourse. I'll let the comment wallow here for a while and then delete it.

"mr" No, it didn't sound like you so I will delete the reference.

Lots of idiocy and dirty tricks from the friends of "democracy" I'd say.

-=blogdai

 
At 2:07 AM, January 22, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks angelica, m.r and anonymnous for your reply according anonymity on internet.
I realize that this is not the appreciate forum to post my information anyway. Our information has been handed over to Amnesty international, to the concerned embassies as well as the police. Maybe they will soon let out the “news”, so everybody can learn more about it.
I realise it is of not much use to post it here, even if I could come forward with my identity, it still apparently wouldn’t convince all here. My real life credentials are good enough for international organisations and several countries political advisors, but how can I claim credebility on internet as an anonymous person. If I should post it, I guess I should choose a larger forum with more readers anyway. Only I can say I do know with a very high possibility, what did happen to those girls. The first post on this line already indicates what side that is the guilty of those murders. So it is better for me not to say anything. It is not in my interests to publish any information that is not true, and I aim to have a high standard of credibility before accepting anything. Politicks is not my field, and my sympathy is with none of the concerned parts in Nepal, other than with the peoples. Only I believe that the people of Nepal, the foreigners, everyone, should have the right to know the truth. And I believe the truth will sooner or later visualize in this case, as there already has been collected some evidence, and it have been “leaks”, from the concerned part.

 
At 4:27 AM, January 22, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Let me simply say that I feel that your new reply here is much appreciated, Anonymous. And the action taken, handing your information over to the parties you mentioned, looks like a wise decision to me.

To make absolutely sure that the relatives concerned are also aware of what you told us and explained us here today, I have meanwhile sent them another e-mail. I have included a link to this discussion-thread and a copy of the text of your latest post.
Myself I do not know if the relatives were made aware already of the information you supplied, nor is it my place to know such things. What matters is that they know, and that they can keep their authorities and their lawyers in Europe updated as well.


Thank you,
and kind regards,


m.r.

 
At 4:35 AM, February 12, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Bad news, yes. Kantipur Online as well as The Himalayan Times report that last night the (decayed) body of a foreign woman was found in Nagarjun Forest.

http://kantipuronline.com/kolnews.php?&nid=65316

quote
KATHMANDU, Feb 12 - Police on Saturday evening found a dead body of a foreign lady at Nagarjun forest in Kathmandu.
The body has not been identified and verified yet, as it is in a decaying state, police sources said.
- - -

The paper reports that DNA-tests will be carried out abroad, and definitive identification will take a few more days.
And in a similar report in The Himalayan Times it is said:

quote
"The body might be that of one of the two missing foreign ladies. However, we are yet to identify. Investigations are underway,” Pitambar Adhikari, deputy superintendent of police at the Valley Crime Investigation Branch, Hanumandhoka, who heads a 10-member investigation team set up to trace the missing ladies.
- - -

My first thoughts and sympathy are with the relatives and the close friends in Europe of course. And if an investigation team managed to make this discovery on a Saturday evening so probably while it was (getting) dark already, I hope this means that they have enough "intelligence" (information I mean) to find the bodies of both women back real soon now.

 
At 5:08 AM, February 15, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey there,

My collegue at work is the cousin of Sabine and I am pretty much shocked about this.

Especially I have to say that I am outraged about the act of the german embassy again. Just another sign how much the germans and french care about their citizens. And of course of how small power they have.

Trust me, if two american girls would be missing, this forrest would be torn apart to find both dead bodies immediately and would send specialist who would track the responsible down and judge them.

I've had my own experience with that. I lived in Indonesia for a year during the riots there and the american embassy got their people save the first day they heard something, the german embassy took over a week after the riots to actually start acting.. This is just crasy.

I just want to say to both families, how sorry I am for that. I am still in shock as we hoped noone would be harmed.

On the other side I have to say I am pretty surprised blogdai. How come all of you have been already talking about "MURDER" before the boddies were found? How come suddenly although the park has been searched before things from both of the girls would be lying around???

I'm sorry this to me sounds to much as "STAGED" and I can't help but believe that the military itself has their fingers in this whole game.

Hope the responsible people will hang.............

 
At 7:02 AM, February 15, 2006, Blogger blogdai said...

Understood.

Two women go missing in the same area at different times doesn't sound like altitude sickness, does it.

You are right on target with your military assessments. Blogdai smells an army or a royal rat here.

-=blogdai

 
At 2:14 AM, February 16, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Blogdai,

Yes but the question is, what does the army or the royalty get out of it, to kill two European girls? They are not satisfied with their women and want to rape them? I don't get it. Why would they want to attack them? If they do not want to use them as hostage why would they just want to kill them???

Do they want tourists stop going there? What is the reason???

 
At 4:54 AM, February 16, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

In reaction to the latest replies:
Let me just show you something that might shed a different light on the general suspicion, so far, that "bad apples" among the army personnel would be responsible for what happened to both women on a Saturday six weeks apart. But first: let's stay aware that you'll find some strange contradictions in the many newsreports that were published after the news about the discovery of last Saturday broke. Contradictions in several respects, but not really relevant to sum them up here, I think.

When the disappearance of both women started to get more media-attention last autumn, suddenly a long article in the Nepali Times also mentioned that "a female tourist from Berlin, Germany" would have been attacked in Nagarjun Forest as well, in May last year, when she was out there on her own. Just like each of the missing women went there alone. This woman however, managed to escape her attacker it said. In other newsstories it said attackerS, so it wasn't clear if she was mugged by one or more people. A German online newssource now reported a.o. the following, on February 15:

quote:
Keine neuen Hinweise gibt es auf den Mörder. Womöglich handelt es sich um den selben Mann, der im Mai 2005 in der Nähe des Tatorts eine Berliner Ärztin überfallen hatte. Die Ärztin entkam. Der Mann war verwahrlost und hatte einen Knüppel bei sich.
source:
http://www.marktplatz-oberbayern.de/regionen/mstadt/
art1606,358823.html?
fCMS=dab6725fa414166c80919da23f29ef33

(Pls. copy & paste to fix that URL). In English it goes about as follows:
There are no new indications regarding the murderer. Possibly it concerns the same man who in May 2005, in the same place, attacked a female physician from Berlin. The physician managed to escape. The man was of shabby appearance and had a cudgel (or: wooden bat) with him.

Does that sound like army soldiers or officers, on duty or while off duty? But remember though: it is just one newsreport. Whether it is fully accurate regarding the description the woman gave afterwards, I have no way to check.
And more things to remember: in spite of intensive searches by the RNA initially (really: they did!), not the slightest evidence was found. On several occasions many weeks later though, when it had been clear in advance that foreigners would come to search, all sorts of belongings of both women were suddenly found, and some even real far apart. However, the good state they were in made it very unbelievable that they would have been there all the time ever since 3rd September and October 15 respectively. They were most probably scattered all over the place deliberately and fresh, and as if to keep a focus on certain parts of the reserve. The brother of the French woman described it like this in a French publication dated December 30, 2005 (unofficial translation):

http://www.lepays.net/jdj/05/12/30/IRF/4/article_24.html

Daniel Henry also revealed strange facts that he experienced in Nepal: "When we carried out searches in the park where my sister was last seen at the beginning of September, the driver of the French embassy found belongings of my sister, among which her torn passport. But the state it was in made me think that it had not been there for a long time". Daniel Henry continues: "Then we also found back photos of the missing German woman, and 500 m further away the bankcard of Céline. I had the impression to be playing “Tom Thumb”. It is as if these items had been deposited there before my arrival, to scramble the traces and to maintain the attention on (for) this park. Not far from the belongings of the German woman, there was also a badge of a soldier of a high rank.

But I guess it's little use, for us here, to sort of "play online detectives". It turned out lately that there are a lot of rumours/stories about Nepali girls and women (some of them lived in the neighbourhood, in Balaju) disappearing from the area (in Nagarjun Forest), but people generally being too scared of the RNA "to talk about it".
How true is that?
How likely is it that an army regiment could keep such things a secret and over a very long time?
Why were solo (foreign) females still allowed entrance into the park at all, if there were clear safety risks for them there?
Why would army personnel responsible for both disappearances "fool around" with evidence (belongings of both women) the way it was done?
Is there a fat chance after all that just some "disturbed" civilian who has nothing to do with the RNA – or at least not officially - preys on women regardless of the fact that soldiers (often) patrol (some parts of) the reserve?


Finally, and in view of the posting here by another "anonymous" who reported on Jan. 22: "Our information has been handed over to Amnesty international, to the concerned embassies as well as the police. Maybe they will soon let out the “news”, so everybody can learn more about it."
What is the matter with what you said, when a close relative (of one of the women) who is really kept informed of what takes place told me more than a week ago already that as far as this person knows, the police nor the embassy were approached with the kind of information that you (anonymous) described here in this thread?
We're all aware of course that unfortunately in missing person cases it is not unusual to receive false information. Either deliberately false ("hoaxes", trying to upset people), or with the best intentions yet inaccurate nevertheless. So if you can, it would be appreciated if you would clarify your previous comments or maybe contact Blogdai or (any of) the relatives directly, please.

 
At 8:48 AM, February 16, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Even more patience required for both families in Europe...

http://kantipuronline.com/kolnews.php?&nid=65702

"Postmortem fails to identify foreign lady’s body"

2006-02-16 07:59:06 (Server Time)

 
At 12:35 AM, February 17, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Mr.R...,

You do not have to call me Anonymous but Mark. I don't know where you got your information from as I am also close to the relatives. I am by no means a hoak, or try to make people feel bad. These news have shocked me extremly and just am wishing all the strength to the families, as they need it the most now. Even though the body is found, the true horror will start as they will get to know mabye how the girls were killed, if they had to suffer or not.

I'm totally with you, don't understand why they let SOLO women enter the park.

But if you think about what you wrote, don't you think that all this might be maybe to much for a homeless poor person who might have robbed them? Do you think a person that poor and uneducated would be so smart to keep the girls paperwork and then spread it in an area of the park to keep the search troops from a certain part of the park.

I have never been to Nepal, but when I think of the poor and uneducated people of Indonesia, trust me noone there would have been so smart to play with officials and search troops like that.

I am judging noone as I don't know what happened, just am in big shock and want nothing more but to help the families that have to go through so much pain now and want to help prevent something like this to happen again.

And I think speaking out on the internet, will maybe make other tourists aware not to go there if not the press is doing this. Now luckily here the press is finally doing something and spreading the word of what happens over there.

 
At 6:28 AM, February 17, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Hi Mark,
No, of course you're real; I never doubted that! But your first post in this thread is of February 15, right?
Just like you, I have never walked around in Nepal either. But I don't know if you would be correct to assume (or expect) that someone looking "shabby" means he has no home and that he is poor and uneducated and also not very smart. My idea behind posting here about the story in Marktplatz Oberbayern was just to show something of a description of the May-2005 attacker. Because, indeed, I don't know if that description would easily "fit" any army personnel.

 
At 6:35 PM, February 18, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Meanwhile, and in fact on the evening of Thursday Febr. 16 already, eKantipur.com published about the main results of the post mortem:

http://www.kantipuronline.com/kolnews.php?&nid=65786

And I can add that on Febr. 18 the relatives of Sabine Grüneklee have e-mailed their friends and contacts to tell them that - with this outcome - they've finally given up hope...
Thorough DNA-analysis and a few more tests still need to be performed in Munich though, with Sabine's body now being brought back to her home country.

 
At 11:31 PM, February 19, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the new infos!! This is now really horrible. I can only imagine, what the family must be going through now. I was on my side also hoping all this time when they did not find the body yet that both of them would be still alive somewhere taken hostage. But now this is the cold reality and it's really bad.

Have they already given already any information about how Sabine died? I hope really for the family, that this guy killed her instantly and she didn't have to suffer. Especially hoping she was not being raped. I know this would kill me if Sabine was my relative.

Another question, do you know if the police over there is planning on checking the park more specifically in the future? Or are they not allowed to step in by the army? What is Nepal planning on making thisa secure place?

 
At 12:11 AM, February 20, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

To the new "Anonymous" here,

What makes you think people are still going there alone?
And why use this blog to ask readers here what the police and the army in Nepal are doing? Ask thém! What are you looking for here, and why?

 
At 5:32 PM, February 23, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

A friend of mine, in Nepal, and with a little experience in these matters warned me that speculation may not be helpful at this stage. But in view of what many people - and you too, Blogdai - suspect, and in addition to my earlier remarks here regarding a "description" of an attacker as it was published in a German daily: here is a new publication in that same daily newspaper Marktplatz Oberbayern: "Mord in Nepal: Sabine Grüneklee identifiziert" (dated February 20, 2006)

quote:
Eine Berliner Ärztin war bereits im Mai unweit der Stelle, an der Sabine Grüneklee ermordet wurde, überfallen worden. Die Ärztin konnte entkommen. Sie beschrieb einen barfüßigen, verwahrlosten Mann mit einem Holzknüppel, womöglich ein obdachloser Einheimischer.

In addition to the previous comments I quoted here, it now also says the May-attacker was described as "barefooted", and it says that the attack on the Berliner physician took place not far from the spot where Sabine was murdered, and the paper adds "possibly a homeless native".

In spite of my friend's recommendations not to start speculating, could you describe me please what Army soldier or officer would – and with real evil in mind – walk there "barefooted"?

 
At 6:25 AM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Blogdai you and many others have said they "smelled an RNA or a royal rat" in this double tragedy. I don't know if it escaped everyone's attention (also because I cannot read Nepali) re. matters of safety and security, but with more details emerging from Germany about a previous attack (or an attempt at least) on a female tourist in Mai last year, one should seriously worry about how well the RNA is doing its job of protecting the place, including the "royal bungalow" there.
I know it's a very large forest, and a difficult terrain to "monitor". But IF its many caves also serve as shelter for homeless people and among them a thief, rapist & serial killer then what is the army doing there at all?

What do your contacts in Kathmandu meanwhile think of these "cases"?

 
At 6:34 AM, February 25, 2006, Blogger blogdai said...

Most certainly royal or army involvement.

-=blogdai

 
At 6:50 AM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Okay; in that case I'll post a translation of the relevant parts of the German newsarticle(s) a little while later here (have to do a few other things first now).
I've started to ask around lately to get a confirmation that those descriptions (in German) are indeed accurate, as far as the May-2005 statement of the woman involved is concerned.

 
At 10:17 AM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Allright; ever since I've become a close witness to the struggle of Gareth Koch's parents with their (British) Embassy in Kathmandu, I do not have much faith anymore in the communication skills of ambassadors, consuls and their staff. And in the case of Céline Henry the French ambassador, Jolivet, in fact soon refused and kept refusing all cooperation with her relatives; he much preferred to protect his good relationship with the Nepali authorities than that he would assist Céline's family in their pleas for action and thorough investigation by those same Nepali authorities. With the exception of the king, who did answer their request to him and facilitated them to improve their proper contacts with the officials in Nepal. And there is more to say in that respect, but let's focus on the news from Germany now first.

It seems for a fact that a female German tourist was almost trapped on Nagarjun hill in May 2005. How she escaped, where she went, whom she told her story: I don't know if the Kathmandu police ever received all the details – untill the tragic disappearances of Céline and 6 weeks later Sabine. But they should have them by now, and so should the RNA! Probably not through the German Embassy, but rather through direct contacts with the Munich special police squad for murder investigations.

Here's the translation of that noteworthy part of the German newsarticle in Marktplatz Oberbayern (link is in my 6:25 am reply):

Headline:
Murder in Nepal: corpse of Munich woman found
"Robbery and sexual crime" – police searching for a barefooted robber with a club

3rd paragraph:
The 31 yr old, who had temporarily given up her job with a Munich company to go on a one year's global trip, possibly fell victim to a robber whom a female physician from Berlin only narrowly managed to escape in May of last year already. Quite close to the spot where later Sabine G. was also murdered, a shabby (or "unkept") looking, barefooted man with a club had been luring for her. The physician's impression is that he is a local (native). The place of the (attempted) attack, according to Wilfling (note: this man is the senior or leader in charge of the Munich Police murdersquad), was smartly chosen: "The path (road) there leads over a ridge covered with dense forest, to a temple on the top of the hill. On both its sides the terrain is full of fissured crevasses that drop very steeply. You cannot pull out (escape) there".

= = =

Comment: I think the "also" in the 2nd sentence intends to say that Sabine was not only preyed on and attacked but – contrary to the May incident - also killed.

Then: please keep in mind that – even under severe stress – a trained physician will probably better (i.e. more accurately, more professionally) describe a person afterwards than a non-trained "eye" could ever do.

Finally and for what it's worth: eKantipur.com brought an unbelievable description of how and where exactly the human remains were found on February 11. I'm in doubt if I should repeat that part of their newsarticle here, but it seems I better don't for I'm not looking for sensation. I know there are clouded leopards in the park, and maybe other big cats too. But even then either the reporter made an unforgiveable mistake in his article, or his information – in my opinion – suggests also that no army man (on his own, or more of them) can have been involved in at least the disappearance of the second victim, whose body was meanwhile found back.

It's not my task at all to try and help solve these crimes. However, it is in the interest of Nepal and especially under the extremely difficult political circumstances that – should any soldier(s) or officer(s) of the RNA camp at Balaju/Rani Ban bear no responsibility at all for both disappearances, this will be proven one day.
The RNA's human rights records are far from clean, unfortunately (and that's an understatement). But IF none of them were involved in anything regarding the French and the German victim, they should not need to take the blame nevertheless. Not only would that be unfair, it would also be very careless in the present political & military turmoil and dangers.

So perhaps you'd care to elaborate a little, though carefully, about what you called a "royal rat" here, Blogdai? Because I don't manage to see – at this stage – the involvement of RNA personnel. What is "royal" in your files, your books?

 
At 10:24 AM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

Should have included this part in my translation as well; it's the very last line in the newsarticle:

quote:
Berichten zufolge sollen vereinzelt Menschen in Höhlen auf dem unübersichtlichen Gebiet hausen.

It says that according to reports occasionally people would live in caves on the terrain, that is difficult to oversee.

What reports? What kind of people?

 
At 11:02 AM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The disappearances and murder of ordinary Nepalis are probably of more interest to Nepal, especially the RNA and Maoists' involvement. You epitomise the belief that some lives are worth less than others.

 
At 11:40 AM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

No, I can't agree with you there anonymous.

About your first line, and in general: of course. Though limited to those who suffer most from either the Maoists or the security forces. If you're aware of the most popular tourist destinations, you ought to know that your remark does not go for certain parts of the country and the people who have to make a living there. From tourism: indeed.

About your second line: it's the Nepali tourism business itself (and statistics prove how important tourism revenues are for Nepal) that keeps emphasising through the years that tourists are safe in Nepal and that they are no targets in the political conflict.
While I think that's true (who, including the Maoists, would want to harm or even kill one's major source of income?) it's Nepalis themselves who seem to believe "that some lives are worth less than others", to use exactly your words. I'm referring now to businessmen, government officials, journalists, (western) ambassadors, but also to all those foreigners who'll kill you (on the internet) should you say one negative thing about travelling to Nepal.

As a matter of fact last night I read about the functioning of the RCCC, the problems it meets, and how it's a "public secret" that a small yet "inevitable" part of the tourism to Nepal involves people "with a soft spot for" paedophilia. Psychopaths is the proper definition for such people. Yet what do you expect to get with an ongoing civil war and many children being orphaned? That aspect of tourism to Nepal, contrary to the many publications about f.e. Thailand and a few other countries notarious for "underaged prostitution", does not get much press attention - at least outside Nepal - that I'm aware of. So, in that light too, perhaps you'd like to explain in more detail what belief you referred to re. some lives being worth less than others?
I am not defending here that the lives of western tourists are generally worth more than the lives of ordinary (or less ordinary) Nepali citizens. You're barking up the wrong tree. You should send your criticism in that respect to the Nepal Tourism Board, for starters.

Finally: this is no contest. Both women went on a holiday to Nepal also because they'd been given reasons to believe they would be safe there. We're indeed not talking about altitude sickness, a fatal mountaineering or traffic accident, or a trekker somehow and due to an accident being killed in the high mountains.
So will you shut up here please where you're trying to shut mé up about at least one, deliberate murder. But probably two. On completely innocent, harmless, unarmed women tourists.

 
At 12:17 PM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So when foreigners get murdered in your country do you expect the press there to report each and every incident? Is the murder of each and every foreigner traveling or living in whatever shithole you're from get posted all over the internet? I doubt it.

And here's some breaking news for you: paedophilia happens all around the world. It's not limited to Asia. Child labor is used in Nepal, as it is in many 3rd world nations. The problems of the poor and downtrodden in Nepal or elsewhere should not be reduced to a footnote in history. Nor should the murder of a handful of dumbass foreigners be elevated above these very serious problems that Nepal and other poor countries face.

 
At 2:05 PM, February 25, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

I am posting from no shithole.

You can apologise right here for posting such a totally unprovoked insult, or leave.

 
At 4:14 AM, February 26, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, I don't think I'll apologize. Nor will I leave unless you get Blogdai to zap me into infinity.

And I guess you noticed how you're more concerned with me calling your hometown a shithole than dealing with the reality of my previous post. Someone go figure...

 
At 12:00 PM, March 17, 2006, Anonymous m.r. said...

things ain't over till they're over...

Des policiers français à Katmandu
Trois policiers français vont partir à Katmandu du jeudi 16 au 31 mars. Il seront accompagnés d'un maître-chien plus deux chiens. Le juge n'étant pas autorisé à se rendre sur place, il chapeautera l'enquête depuis la France. La durée du séjour pourra être prolongée "si nécessaire". Espérons que malgré le retard, ils nous apporteront de bonnes nouvelles.

 

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